“I may be a little biased, but CRO is the most fun field there is.” Quietly Shirley takes a seat for the interview and we chat for a while about work and everything around it. We know each other from a previous employer, where we both grew up as consultants in our junior years. After gaining experience at various agencies, Shirley has been the liaison on major projects at Online Dialogue since 2021 as conversion manager. Clients love her and that's not surprising. She is creative, approachable and helpful and also brings a lot of experience with her.

Every project is different

In her work at Online Dialogue, she gets a lot of room for creativity and experimentation. She uses this for Maxeda, among others, Better Bed, Hoppenbrouwers and Van der Valk. “Online Dialogue gives all the freedom to complete projects as I think it suits the client's needs. Every project is different. From strategic issues about setting up a validation and data-driven culture to running full-fledged CRO programs with a team of specialists. One day I'm co-writing an award-winning case for Better Bed and the next I'm working on setting up a product discovery process within Maxeda. It is precisely this variety that makes working on the agency side so instructive.”

Shirley, along with Sascha Serra (Conversion Optimization Analyst at Maxeda), shares insights using the Triple Diamond Framework at #DiDo41

As conversion manager, she is responsible for her team's performance and customer satisfaction. “Putting specialists in their strengths is what energizes me. I like to see how someone can be in his or her element. When someone is able to convey very difficult material clearly and get people on board, it's a win for the whole team. I get very happy helping customers and answering the question behind the question.”

From Brand Optimization to CRO

In 2016, Shirley completed her studies at a full service digital marketing agency in Almere. Here she was researching a new service, Brand Optimization. “I liked the field so much that I kept working there. In my early years as a CRO specialist, I was often on stages sharing insights and was given a lot of room to grow and put the service on the map with our clients.” After working as a chapter lead CRO for a time, she switched to client side, but soon missed agency life. The variety and ‘work hard, play hard’ mentality suited Shirley like a glove, so when the vacancy at Online Dialogue came along she applied immediately. “I knew Online Dialogue of course from Conversion Hotel, the blogs and trainings. If you're into CRO in the Netherlands, Online Dialogue is at the top of the list of thought leaders. I'm glad I can now contribute to it myself. When I came for an interview, I immediately felt a click and I was so enthusiastic about the company, the atmosphere and the people. Now I have been incredibly comfortable here for over two years.”

Working at Online Dialogue

In the two years at Online Dialogue, Shirley has experienced a lot. But one of the moments that has stayed with her the most is the ‘Campfire Moment’ which Ruben also referred to in an earlier interview.

“Last September (2022) we went with the team to Bled, Slovenia. On the way there, we were all given an envelope with loose leaves in it. These leaves went around on the plane so that everyone could write down a compliment about another colleague. These compliments were then put back into the envelope and we were all given an envelope with compliments about another colleague. It was up to us to use these compliments to prepare a pitch of a few minutes with these compliments about the colleague in question. That evening at the campfire everyone did a creative ode to a colleague: from self-written songs to poems to serenades. This moment was incredibly beautiful and I felt very connected to my colleagues at the time.”

Shirley lives quite a distance from Utrecht, but that doesn't stop her from coming to the office regularly. Working at home or on location with clients is quite normal, but on Fridays everyone is at ODHouse. “Fridays are a real favorite. The Friday afternoon inspiration session is always interesting. From 16:00 to 17:00 different topics are discussed and all colleagues are free to contribute something. Involvement is very high within the team, so everyone also contributes to the Friday afternoon. This shows that we really are a bunch of professionals together. And anyone who has attended an inspiration session knows: there are always hooks and additions from the audience.”

Shirley is also a familiar face to our guests at Conversion Hotel

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Also working as a Conversion Manager?

For the new batch of conversion managers, Shirley has good advice. “I may be a bit biased 😉 but CRO is the most fun field there is. There is room to experiment and optimize and it touches business strategies, which means you can really help companies. My tip when starting out in this field is to start at agency side. You'll learn super much about different clients and it's also good for developing general skills like planning, advising and presenting.”

Want to know more about Shirley's work? Then read her blogs:

• Product Discovery for Agile processes
• A prediction of CRO trends for 2023 
• Boost your CRO program with these three models 

And especially sign up for the newsletter. This way you are always the first to know about the latest OD news, events and interesting blogs. Curious about interviews with other colleagues? Here you can read more about Conversion Managers Ruben and Desiree, UX designer Marcel and Data Scientist Naomi:

• Pragmatic take on complicated projects: meet our conversion manager from the south (Desiree van der Horst)
• Optimizing for professionals: Ruben de Boer
• Interview: Naomi Smulders, Data Scientist
• CRO UX is usability design at the Champions League level (Marcel Stommel)
• Consultancy is an art: in conversation with Reinier Koolmees